460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

15 replies [Last post]
johnhogg441@gma...
johnhogg441@gmail.com's picture
Offline
Joined: 06.01.2020
Location: Tadcaster

Hi - I'm new to this forum - but have recently bought a 460 280 Petrol G Wagen 5 door first registered in 1985.  The engine runs fine and all is well except I need to replace the Crank Shaft Oil Seals front and back.  I was amazed to find you need to lift out the engine to do this.  So having been given a garage quote of £1050 plus VAT, I am working my way through lifting the engine and attempting this seal swap myself.

Wish me luck.......

I have noticed that when driving, in order to keep the fuel consumption down a bit I keep the revs down to 3000 but this only gives me about 55-65 MPH.  The gearbox is a manual 4 speed which works well but I need something that will give more miles per revs to help with the fuel consumption.  I wonder if there is a better gearbox that would go straight in??.

I had considered an Autogas installation but expect that could be quite expensive on a 6 cylinder engine, that may not produce a large improvement in cost per mile.

Are there any suggestions out there for a fairly inexperienced spanner man.

Thanks for any help given.

 

 

Jdring
Jdring's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.04.2004
Location: South of Oxford, UK. 'dingaling' on the Register
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

I had the 5 speed manual 230GE and it was a dream.  That 5th gear made all the difference.

I have a 230GE auto and I feel the same there - needs another gear.  Maybe a different ratio differential would be an option... but would mess up the speedo

I also gave up trying to get fuel economy from my older Gs.  Variously get from 13mpg to 18mpg (edited) max.

I went modern with a G350 CDi and that returns a very decent 22 to 26mpg and very smooth.

I looked at LPG conversion for the older petrols, but decided it wasn't worth the investment to do or the hassle lots of people had.  Next idea is to wait for the electric G !! (and take out a mortgage).

 

prwales
prwales's picture
Offline
Joined: 30.05.2007
Location: West Glamorgan
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

An auto will give a swb a sub 15 mpg, manual better and a 5 speed better still but circa 18-20, so not great, lots of alternative engines out there from V8's to diesels most have been tried by someone on the forum. Even a diesel will only give you 25mpg but on an older 5 cylinder unit you can put almost anything in the tank. Even the lightest swb is 2 tons and brick shaped so we can't expect miraculous fuel consumption. If it were me, and I do like the 280 engine, I'd probably look for a 5 speed gearbox

markhowes
markhowes's picture
Offline
Joined: 15.01.2014
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

Next idea is to wait for the electric G !!

This Video I Just Oh Yes GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

Nick123
Nick123's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.01.2004
Location: Argyll, Scotland
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs
Sorry, Mark. Like many, I have considerable reservations about the battery powered option. Why are Africa, South America and Australia being intensively mined? How is the leccy being produced? How far can a battery vehicle go on a charge? How likely is it that batteries will be universal and that we could leave a drained battery at a service station to pick up a ready charged one to allow us to continue the journey? How long does a battery last? How long does a battery powered vehicle last? And more questions besides... That said, there must be a better alternative to the infernal combustion engine. Perhaps hydrogen cell technology might be viable. While boffins ponder I'll stay with my 33 year old 460 and its 25 year old (refurbished) engine. Apparently more than 80% of a vehicle's "eco-cost" lies in the manufacture. I very much doubt that our VW Tiguan will last as much as 15 years; the plethora of fallible gadgetry will have condemned it before then. Let's discuss it over a cuppa when next we can meet up. Wishing us all the best for our futures, N.
prwales
prwales's picture
Offline
Joined: 30.05.2007
Location: West Glamorgan
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

Agree, the destruction caused in creating short term batteries [they lose reliability after just 5 years] out weighs the benefits, repair and maintenance of older cars and stopping production of new models makes more sense to me. 

markhowes
markhowes's picture
Offline
Joined: 15.01.2014
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

I don't disagree with either of you but the die seems to be set - no more petrol or deisel engines fairly soon.

Maybe battery production will overcome the negatives given how much investment is being ploughed into continuing development.

Or how about hydrogen?

Battery vs Hydrogen - which is going to turn out to be the modern Betamax? Or maybe they'll be able to co-exist? Or maybe somethin else will come along that we haven't thought about yet.

 

 

Nick123
Nick123's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.01.2004
Location: Argyll, Scotland
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs
The bottom line is that we will - because we must - find a solution.
johnhogg441@gma...
johnhogg441@gmail.com's picture
Offline
Joined: 06.01.2020
Location: Tadcaster
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

Hi to All - and thank you all for your responses - being new to G Wagon and forums in general - this is great to hear the experiences of others with the same or similar vehicles.  Sadly you only find out about things like fuel economy and the like soon after purchase.  Not being a wealthy person - 14-16 MPG is way too expensive for me in the UK.  I will look at a gearbox swap asap as the engine is out for crankshaft oil seal replacements front and back - what a crazy design on the 280 Petrol where the engine has to come out to swop a crankshaft rear oil seal.  But if it gets me onto a 5 speed gearbox I won't mind so much.  20-25 MPG will do - I'd prefer 30 as I can live with that.  Maybe I could swop to a 123 diesel and gearbox if I could find some at the right price.  Does anyone know what is involved in swopping a) a 717.431 5 speed gearbox to a 280 Petrol engine.  b) swopping out the 280 Petrol and 4 speed gearbox to insert a 123 or 300 diesel and gearbox.  In the latter - what might be the MPG.  Any info would be great and much appreciated.

As far as the planet is concerned - if we developed Bio-Diesel more, that would mean we could run combution diesel without the Nox polution.  Also if we developed Autogas more - we could run Petol combution - all without much of the Nox polution.  That would also give the oil and gas industry somewhere to go in the forseeable future.  Might not save the planet immediately but would help alot in polution to our cities.  Only my opinion - and I may be misinformed but would welcome other workable views and ideas. Electric is going to be too expensive for many for along time to come - and heavy on materials in the poorest parts of the world - we souldn't plunder them again without really sorting out their problems - which is within the abilities of the West without a problem - we must do more for Africa - we plundered it for long enough and diddn't put anything like enough back to the people - they are still starving.

Thanks again everyone - great forum.

Yours  John

 

gav.helme
gav.helme's picture
Offline
Joined: 29.04.2011
Location: North Lincolnshire
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

Without sounding dismissive or negative

If you're looking for 25mpg plus... sell the G and buy something else

real life MPG will struggle to achieve that no matter what set up you have

Around 20 or below is about most you're gonna get without an engine swap

280's hate gas 

£8/10k on an engine swap is disirable for usability and drivability and fun factor 

Not much in there about MPG though!

Still expect 25mpg at best apart from the odd long run...

G ownership and MPG concerns are different conversations unfortunately 

It's the aero dynamics :0(

prwales
prwales's picture
Offline
Joined: 30.05.2007
Location: West Glamorgan
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

gav.helme wrote:

Without sounding dismissive or negative

If you're looking for 25mpg plus... sell the G and buy something else

real life MPG will struggle to achieve that no matter what set up you have

Around 20 or below is about most you're gonna get without an engine swap

280's hate gas 

£8/10k on an engine swap is disirable for usability and drivability and fun factor 

Not much in there about MPG though!

Still expect 25mpg at best apart from the odd long run...

G ownership and MPG concerns are different conversations unfortunately 

It's the aero dynamics :0(

You will really struggle to get 25 on a diesel too in every day use, if you compare the weight of the G 2 tons or so with that of a saloon that used the 280 engine, circa 1 1/4 tons and the 14-16 isn't that bad, forget lpg though it just doesn't work

JASONGDS
JASONGDS's picture
Offline
Joined: 15.07.2011
Location: High Peak
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

25mpg , would only be possible if no hills, tyres pumped to 60psi, dont exceed 40mph! Move to Holland! 

On a run , keeping my 603 at indicated 60, ( about 54 on sat nav, ) about 25, tho go up to 70mphm drops significantly m running around locally  19 ish?

Definitely is the aerodynamics but they make the G!

Jdring
Jdring's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.04.2004
Location: South of Oxford, UK. 'dingaling' on the Register
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

You could go modern!  Spend the money that way.

A G350Cdi (Bluetech) returns 23mpg all day long combined use.  26+ on a cruise.  I reckon I could coax it to 30mpg but never had the patience to try.

But 463 G350s-G63s are a different experience. Still immensely capable 4x4, but rarely used as such and more of a street SUV.  You get a different stare driving along also.  But I love the extra comfort and mod cons.

prwales
prwales's picture
Offline
Joined: 30.05.2007
Location: West Glamorgan
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

That ties in to my ge300 manual, overall 19, but more on a run, my w124 300e auto gets 25 mpg however its used, that though was lighter and when new had class leading aerodynamics

JASONGDS
JASONGDS's picture
Offline
Joined: 15.07.2011
Location: High Peak
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

Also, winter temperatures really affect economy,  all that oil drag when it's  cold, summer a lot less resistance? 

GWOA Admin
GWOA Admin's picture
Offline
Joined: 11.09.2010
Location: Oxford
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: 460 - 280 - Petrol - Running Costs

JASONGDS wrote:

Also, winter temperatures really affect economy,  all that oil drag when it's  cold, summer a lot less resistance? 

Sure, but only for the warm up time. Once it is at 85C, its the same, right?  So little or no difference on any distance journeys.  Though I always got the impression that cold air intake influenced combustion.  There is a little explanation here, which is about cold air having more O2 and damp air having some water vapour which increases expansion during combustion.  Go Figure.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cars-perform-best-when-it-s-cold-and-dam...